Curse

Sun Fired Blank · May 03, 2009, 09:43 AM // 09:43

The Z-Coins aren't designed to have monetary value. The three big points of the Z-Coin system, in my opinion, are to:

1. reward people for gameplay, both their modalities of preference and modalities they might otherwise neglect
2. do so without negatively influencing the Guild Wars economy
3. give relatively unique rewards to further promote these comparatively unprofitable activities

The straight value of a copper z-coin for conventional items is roughly 5 to 10 gold depending on what you buy, using these figures:

Creme Brulee: ~300g
Firewater: ~300g
Lockpick: 1,200g to 1,500g
Small Equipment Pack: 2,500g
Tomes: 300g to 800g
Elite Tomes: 3,000g to 8,000g

Taking some of the values that I recently completed (although they are different from quest to quest), and some ballpark estimates for completion:

bounty: 35 zcoins, 175 to 350 gold, 5-10 minutes
mission: 70 zcoins, 350 to 700 gold, 15-30 minutes
pvp: 350 coins, 1,750 to 3,500 gold, 30 minutes

Obviously this comparison isn't relevant for the higher end items. But right now, the z-coin reward is so unbelievably low for the conventional items that amassing the coins for the more unique (and entirely cost-ineffective) items seems like a Sisyphean task. And presently, there isn't enough reward for doing it, period.

The obvious problems that stand out though are:

1) conventional z-coin rewards are ridiculously overpriced

While I understand they don't wish to adversely influence Guild Wars economy, it's pretty clear that the z-coin to conventional item conversion rate is bad. No one is going to buy anything except for the equipment packs and the crate at present rates. They should reduce prices by at least 50% for everything that's larger than a small equipment pack or the fireworks crate. This would adjust the value of a z-coin to roughly 20 gold each.

Alternatively, you could simply double the z-coin rewards, but you'd have to then adjust the prices of the larger equipment packs and the fireworks crate

This would mean:

bounty: 700 gold of zcoins, 5-10 minutes of work
mission: 1,400 gold of zcoins, 15-30 minutes of work
pvp: 7,000 gold of zcoins, 30 minutes of work

Combined with the quest gold rewards (which vary in terms of gold), this makes the potential hourly reward closer to 10,000 to 15,000 hr. This is obviously not an amazing number for anybody that does elite area speed clears or even raptor or vaettir solo farming, but it's much more favorable.

2) Light equipment packs are the only sensible z-coin exchange.

A small equipment pack is 5 silver coins, or you can simply buy it for 2,500 gold. A light equipment pack is 10 silver coins, which is exactly twice the z-coin cost of a small equipment pack. It's presently the only item that your typical person would ever buy with z-coins, because it's the only sensible option; it's the only thing that's reasonably cost-effective. All other conversions are done at a huge loss.

3) Small equipment packs have a bad storage to cost ratio, especially for the cost of z-coins.

5 slots for 2.5 platinum is kind of expensive for such a marginal extra; they should be more like 1k each. Under the present system, a small equipment pack should be closer 2 silver coins. A PvE player who does the bounty and mission quests daily on a single character will have a light equipment pack in about four or five days.

4) There aren't enough unique z-coin rewards.

Besides equipment packs, there's just no reason to spend z-coins on anything because it's not practical.

These adjustments also make a straight up (and easier to understand) comparison a bit more meaningful for the z-coin exclusive items (excepting the crate, which can be obtained from the Traveler). The adjusted rates would be:

Light Equipment Pack: 10,000 gold
Large Equipment Pack: 50,000 gold
Heavy Equipment Pack: 150,000 gold
Everlasting Fireworks Crate: 500,000 gold

The Everlasting Fireworks Crate looks pretty okay: 100 + 80Eish is reasonably comparable to most of the mid-level monthly everlastings, but obviously higher than the ugly ones and lower than the phantasmal or the non-monthlies. The Large and Heavy Equipment Packs are still very expensive though. You are obviously paying a rather hefty amount for the extra space. For me, that's exactly the point for a unique reward that is only purchasable using z-coins. You've always paid extra for space. Using merchant values:

Belt Pouch: 5 slots for 100g, or 20g per slot
Bag: 5 slots for 100g or 20g per slot
Rune of Holding: 5 slots for 500g, or 100g per slot
Small Equipment Pack: 5 slots for 2,500g, or 500g per slot

Under an adjusted system you would pay:

Light Equipment Pack: 10 slots for 10,000g, or 1,000g per slot
Large Equipment Pack: 15 slots for 50,000, or 3,333 g per slot
Heavy Equipment Pack: 20 slots for 150,000, or 7,500g per slot

Even under an adjusted system, the pricing is just slightly unreasonable. I understand that reducing their cost isn't something to be taken lightly with regard for the original points, and that A-Net wants the pack to be a somewhat unique and hard-to-earn reward, but right now it's just a bit silly. The average PvE player that only clears the bounty and the mission for a single character (and skips elite areas), will get a heavy pack in just over two months. That seems a bit slow to me, but isn't too bad. Obviously this can change pretty quickly by doing the quests on multiple characters, doing one of the PvP quests, or finishing one of the elite areas. I'm sure Arena-Net had this in mind.

The system actually (and probably intentionally) gives the most rewards to multi-modal PvP players with highly active f-list or guilds; the GvG / HA quests in particular give you the most z-coins (350 per completion w/ bonuses). I have probably 6 gold coins from the HA quest alone.

In my opinion though, the Large Equipment Pack is probably more reasonable at 3 gold coins (30,000g, or 2,000g per slot), and the Heavy Equipment Pack at 10 gold coins (100,000g, or 5,000g per slot).

Quote:

The quest rewards are messed up: they're acting like zaishen coins are precious resources and are far too stingy with them.

For instance, I can win 2 hero battles and turn in the quest for 6k faction and .5 silver z-coins. I would have to repeat this 20 times (40 wins) in order to get a single z-key (1 gold z-coin). Meanwhile I would have made 24 z-keys in faction.

The PvP quests were probably designed up front with greater faction and gold rewards to encourage inexperienced players into playing the various formats, and to reward successful PvP players who otherwise don't earn that much cash. The bonuses objectives are intended to reward those more experienced players with massive z-coinage.

The problem is that quests are often completed in the short term, and unless they provoke a greater interest in the format, just promote the already omnipresent farming mentality, which manifests in terms of playing dumb shit from which no one learns anything (e.g. mathway, b-spike, IWAY) to system abuse (red resigns, arena syncing, leeching competitive missions) to get a disproprotionately large basic reward.

Another problem is that players who don't care about the z-coins just farm certain quests over and over by re-rolling new PvP characters after they complete the basic requirements. I seriously doubt anyone is against such farming in terms of one's ability to farm them (honestly, rather than system abuse). But if people are deciding to farm the quests rather than engage in other profitable farming activities or finish the bonus objectives, it's pretty clear that the z-coin rewards are grossly inadequate or the basic rewards are too high.

I ground the math, and for the HA quest, with a good group and some dedication, you could easily get the quest, wipe the Zaishen, farm UW / Fetid, map out for the reward, transfer the rewards to storage, and re-roll in roughly 8 minutes. That's 9,000 faction and 1,500 gold per quest completion, plus the 1,000 or so from the first two maps. That makes for 11,250 gold and 67,500 faction per hour on average from the quest rewards. If you assume that you earn about 7,500 faction from UW / Fetid, that's 75,000 faction, or 15 z-keys. Sell your z-keys at 3.8k to 4k, and you're making 70,000 gold per hour.

I've been playing a ton of HA with a euro friend lately, and on the HA quest days, he would joke that he'd fake a D/C after Fetid, then conveniently re-roll for the quest. He re-rolled every time that we returned to the staging area. Unfortunately, he didn't make that much faction because we were disgustingly successful. On the other hand, we both made like 3,000 z-coins, which was in line with the original intention of the system.

Quote:

Reminds me of when they introduced pvp faction originally, and didn't price it very well (had to be increased by many orders of magnitude before the system worked).

Luckily an easy quick change is to just adjust the rate for transferring silver to gold. Especially because right now no one should have any gold coins yet, as it only takes 2 slots to store all current z-coins. That actually may not be enough, but would be a decent start. You could pretty much drop the rate to 1:1 (silver=gold) to be more in line, though it would make the system pretty goofy in the transition.[/QUOTE]

The Z-Coin system is nowhere near as broken as that; I honestly don't believe most people understand how stupid that shit was. Maybe if you got a tenth the z-coins you get now, you'd begin to approach that level of stupidity. Right now the system is actually reasonably good, and actually the conversion rates are reasonably good too.

The problem right now is exactly as above: conventional crap is roughly twice as expensive as it should be, and the unique things have to priced somewhat independently of the conventional stuff. Which is not to say that some comparison isn't helpful (as above) but the heavy pack definitely isn't supposed to be something easy to get.

Quote:

In the most efficient method of accumulation, zcoins account for about 3% of the quest reward value (faction being 80%, and gold 17%), directly comparable through zkeys.

With all the bonus objectives completed, the ratios are more favorable. For the Heroes' Ascent quest, you get 7,020g in faction (faction -> z-key @ 3.9), 1,500 in gold, and 3,500 in z-coins, which works out to 58.3%, 12.5% and 29.2% respectively.

Without the bonus objectives, you're absolutely right. You'd only make about 500 gold in z-coins, which is ~77.8%, ~16.7%, and ~5.5% respectively. Which leads back to all of the original points.

Gforce · May 03, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

pvp: 350 coins, 1,750 to 3,500 gold, 30 minutes

While the rest of your post looks pretty good, this is just not true. If you have a good group in HA you can complete the quest in an hour, in one run. However, if you have a good group you're not gonna quit out the moment you get in HoH so you can start again on another char.

A similar situation occurs in GvG, you can complete the whole quest in one at of 3 rounds (if you win all), which will take about 90 minutes (possible longer). Or you could use 3 chars, win 6 ladder matches and win an AT match on each of them, which might be slighly faster.

So basicly, change the estimated time to atleast one hour (for the 350 coin quests that is, which seem to be most time efficient for zcoin farming)...

Greedy Gus · May 03, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

The problem is that in almost every pvp format, completing the bonus objectives is largely inefficient. For the hero battle example (imo the most easily farmed due to semi-consistent collusion), even if you maximized your z-coin haul by winning 6 matches before turning in the quest, won 360 games, and sold the heavy equipment pack for 50 ecto (a rough price noted earlier this thread), you would still have made less money per game than those turning in the reward as early as possible and selling keys for 4k. This may not matter when the heavy packs are still rare, but once gold can more easily translate to obtaining one on the market, then that gold translation does matter.

My original point was that I honestly think they just overvalued the coins and didn't intend for the z-quest rewards to be so skewed. Any new form of currency can be hard to value before you're comfortable doling it out, and I suspect that their comfort with faction & gold make a 6k faction, 1k gold, 25 copper coin non-bonus reward seem somewhat reasonable without taking a closer look.

You could argue that the hefty faction rewards are intentionally generous in the case of the combat quests, but I suspect that the pve quest rewards are just awfully undersized, and the pvp rewards put a magnifying glass up to their value.

Arduin · May 03, 2009, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not if your goal is to get the 15 or 20 slot bags as soon as possible by repeating quests through all your characters (8 per account) across 2 accounts.

I would have enjoyed the game better in my own time, if the prices of the bags are not that steep for PvE players.

So in this you and I are different.

I play the Zquests with my Guildmates/Allies/PUG's, because I like to do those Quests, the rewards are an added bonus.

You play the Zquests for the reward only, to amass Coins for the Equipment Pack.

From your point, I can understand why it feels like a grind, and why you want new content. If there was a Quest, with an abnormal reward (say 3k Zcoins), you'd probably farm that quests over and over because it gave you so much Coins, but at the same time hating what you were doing.

Ask yourself, what are you going to do after all your toons got an adequate Pack? It seems to me you are pretty much burned out of the game, only playing for an artifical and sometimes unneeded reward. I'm not the person to alter your gaming style, but shouldn't you just take a break, however short?

We all know Anet isn't goint to release any massive new content until GW2 launches (2 years), but in this manner you'll only grow increaslingly bitter.

---------------

I've posted earlier I think the ZCoins prices are okay, at least for the prestige items as the Moss Egg, the Everlasting Crate and the Packs. Yet there is clearly some discrepancy between the time invested completing a quest and the reward. Killing a hard to reach Boss in HM, and only earn the equivalent off a Champagne Popper is indeed kinda lame.

superraptors · May 03, 2009, 12:19 PM // 12:19

learn to pvp, its not that hard

own age myname · May 03, 2009, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

learn to pvp, its not that hard

Some people (not including myself, I pvp from time to time) just hate the competitive nature of PvP. I'd also like to see you find the perfect PUG (not guildies or allies) HA group, no rank, for PvP and get the both bonuses done.

Dante the Warlord · May 03, 2009, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

Some people (not including myself, I pvp from time to time) just hate the competitive nature of PvP. I'd also like to see you find the perfect PUG (not guildies or allies) HA group, no rank, for PvP and get the both bonuses done.

Agreed.

PvE is great because i can just do things with heroes and use unique consumables and summoning stones or PvE skills. In PvP i get super competitive people who call people noob every few seconds. At the same time, in PvP, someone has to lose which makes it terribly unfair as half the people will be leaving very happy and the other half not so much.

I do PvE rewards because it is somewhat fun and I can do them quickly. As to Sun Fired Blank's analysis of the zcoins I have to disagree on some of the timings. PvP rewards take at least an hour to do. PvE bounties range greatly depending on where the boss is. 35 zcoin worth bounties take around 5-10 minutes, while high end area bosses take more than an hour to do(sometime even more with inexperienced members). PvE missions probably take a little more than an half hour to do - including setting up a team. In harder mission (or longer ones) like TH keep, you spend an absurd amount of time for very little reward.

I will be aiming for the large bag, but even with 3 gold coins, it will still probably take me another week or two.

ogre_jd · May 03, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

PvE is great because i can just do things with heroes and use unique consumables and summoning stones or PvE skills.

Which is, of course, why the Zaishen Bounty and Mission are worth so little compared to the the Zaishen Combat.

Yawgmoth · May 03, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Cost of all equipment packs - from 5 to 20 slots is allright. They're all obtainable through normal play, just don't expect to max out all characters in a couple days. It's meant to last months.

I enjoy upgrading my storage *every day*.
I'm still at the stage of getting the 10-slot bag for all my characters and mules, right now some mules don't even have the 2.5k bag but every time I get a new one I move a 5-slot pack to that mule. That +5-10 new slots per day is a lot of space and a great incentive to play.

Don't nerf that - pack prices are all perfect.

If something's overcosted it's only all the other items you can get for ZCoins - all of them can be obtained MUCH easier and cheaper, for example simply bought for gold. Even after 6 months from now, getting the 10 or 15 slot bags will still be the best option by far.

HawkofStorms · May 03, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I think people are being to short sighted about this. 2 years from now, when you have more zoins then you know what to do with, you'll be singing a different tune about how they destroyed the value of sweets/booze/ and fireworks (which is what people will buy once they get all the bags they need/want).
You gotta have a long view if you are going to look at this update from a game economics point of view.

Red Sonya · May 03, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Look what happened in FA and those that were exploiting the bug using /resign and some groups were actually /reporting those that wouldn't resign and getting them dishonored out of playing!!! Yeah that happened I sawed it.

The only problem I have with the zcoin system is PVP players getting a LOT MORE zcoins for completing their missions than PVE players. A PVP player can get those bags in half or 1/4 the time of a PVE player and that is just not right. Balance it out in time and reward and type of play. PVP have gotten way too much in this game and it's the PVE players who have paid out the most money to keep Anet/NCsoft afloat with this game.

Arkantos · May 03, 2009, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

I think people are being to short sighted about this. 2 years from now, when you have more zoins then you know what to do with, you'll be singing a different tune about how they destroyed the value of sweets/booze/ and fireworks (which is what people will buy once they get all the bags they need/want).
You gotta have a long view if you are going to look at this update from a game economics point of view.

2 years? People are going to start complaining about that in a few months

Alleji · May 03, 2009, 07:28 PM // 19:28

The prices on bags are fine and you are correct at saying that 10-slotters are the most reasonable item to buy. Bigger bags are meant to be luxury items and they are meant to be overpriced. Leave it the way it is.

However, I kinda agree on making common items cheaper. Either that or they need to add something else that's unique to zcoins... because I don't really know what I'm gonna do with my coins after I get 10-slotters for every char. Probably just stockpile them and sell a crate of fireworks or a large bag when I get enough for that...

hallomik · May 03, 2009, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

... because I don't really know what I'm gonna do with my coins after I get 10-slotters for every char. Probably just stockpile them and sell a crate of fireworks or a large bag when I get enough for that...

I've been thinking about this, too. I got three 10-slots this weekend from doing various Z-quests. The norn bear one was the most profitable since I can do that one in about 7 minutes in hard mode.

My plan is to get about half my characters with 10 slots and then start to get 15's. I figure by then, other people will start to sell their 10's as they upgrade to bigger ones. I can buy the rest 10's and work on 15's. Once half have 15's, I'll switch to getting a 20 slotter, and repeat the process.

zinfamous · May 03, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante the Warlord

Agreed.

PvE is great because i can just do things with heroes and use unique consumables and summoning stones or PvE skills. In PvP i get super competitive people who call people noob every few seconds. At the same time, in PvP, someone has to lose which makes it terribly unfair as half the people will be leaving very happy and the other half not so much.

I do PvE rewards because it is somewhat fun and I can do them quickly. As to Sun Fired Blank's analysis of the zcoins I have to disagree on some of the timings. PvP rewards take at least an hour to do. PvE bounties range greatly depending on where the boss is. 35 zcoin worth bounties take around 5-10 minutes, while high end area bosses take more than an hour to do(sometime even more with inexperienced members). PvE missions probably take a little more than an half hour to do - including setting up a team. In harder mission (or longer ones) like TH keep, you spend an absurd amount of time for very little reward.

I will be aiming for the large bag, but even with 3 gold coins, it will still probably take me another week or two.

My playing style is such:

1. click
2. drink

repeat.

PvP has no place in my world. I have a real job to make money.

Bug John · May 03, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

I really wish there was a way to upgrade bags (large + 10 gold coins + 100g = heavy or a rune to apply to the large pack).

Zeek Aran · May 04, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

I don't have enough freetime to read every post of every thread related to the equipment packs/z coins, so I must ask why.

Why can I get 45 slots [three Large Equipment Pack] for the same price as 20 slots [one Heavy Equipment Pack]? Why didn't they make the Heavy Pack x1.33 the price of the Large? It just doesn't make sense. If I ever get 15 gold coins, I'll definitely get three Large packs.

Coraline Jones · May 04, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

I don't have enough freetime to read every post of every thread related to the equipment packs/z coins, so I must ask why.

Why can I get 45 slots [three Large Equipment Pack] for the same price as 20 slots [one Heavy Equipment Pack]? Why didn't they make the Heavy Pack x1.33 the price of the Large? It just doesn't make sense. If I ever get 15 gold coins, I'll definitely get three Large packs.

In all seriousness, it all comes down to elitism.

No matter what, a Large Equipment Pack is always going to be viewed as "one less" than a Heavy Equipment Pack. There's going to be people that will demand it, and ArenaNet knows it. Even though the price for the Heavy Equipment Pack is totally ridiculous, it will become a goal for many and they will rack up a huge amount of play time to earn one. The goal is to keep fans crazed and playing, so it's working for the most part.

=====

I will say that Equipment Packs are not the greatest things that I originally thought. Once I saw how limited they were, then it began to disappoint me a little.

I found out that a lot of stuff that is filling up storage still can't go into equipment packs. A partial list of items that you can't put into any weapon pack include: Dyes, consumables, lockpicks, keys, runes, insignia, inscriptions, weapon mods, monster trophies, various reward tokens (e.g., Zaishen coins, Vabbian trade contracts), miniatures, quest items, and unopened presents. To me, this is a lot of items and it is going to make me rethink on how many equipment pack slots that I really need.

Daesu · May 04, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arduinna

You play the Zquests for the reward only, to amass Coins for the Equipment Pack.

Yes I admit that. Although I am sure I am not the only player that is doing the zquests for the coins, many people do. I think they should have a title attached to this grind and call it "Slave of ZaiShen".

Quote:

Ask yourself, what are you going to do after all your toons got an adequate Pack? It seems to me you are pretty much burned out of the game, only playing for an artifical and sometimes unneeded reward. I'm not the person to alter your gaming style, but shouldn't you just take a break, however short?

Then I would be free to do whatever I want in the game. And I suspect that we will see a decrease in interest, in the zquests when most people have all the packs that they need. The prices of these packs would also drop.

I have just reached my equipment pack goal tonight. All my 16 characters have all the packs that they need now.

Quote:

I've posted earlier I think the ZCoins prices are okay, at least for the prestige items as the Moss Egg, the Everlasting Crate and the Packs. Yet there is clearly some discrepancy between the time invested completing a quest and the reward. Killing a hard to reach Boss in HM, and only earn the equivalent off a Champagne Popper is indeed kinda lame.

Yes, and that is why they have to add unique rewards into the zquest grind, rewards that can't be bought using normal gold, unless sold by another player.

Ben-A-BoO · May 04, 2009, 08:08 AM // 08:08

got my 5 gold coins Saturday and got a large bag for it. Didn't take that long and 15 slots are enough when you have eight chars to feed. I did mainly the PvP quests aka GvG, HA, TA & AB ... and never felt the boredom that comes with 'grind'. Just switch your toons and team rolls a bit around, was actually good fun.

Keep it like it is.